April 1, 2022
Anne Zachry 0:00
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Anne Zachry 0:58
Today is March 31 2022. This post in podcast is titled, "Interview of George Bailey, president of ZPods." In this podcast, which was originally recorded on March 23 2022, George and I discuss the impact of sleep disorders and related conditions that interfere with children's access to education and the research being done into his company's sleep solutions for children with autism, sensory integration disorders, insomnia, anxiety, and other disorders that can negatively impact their sleep quality.
George Bailey 1:29
Hi, I'm George Bailey, and I'm president of ZPods. We're a startup in St. Louis, and we are developing sensory-friendly beds for autistic children and others who have severe sleep problems that are caused by sensory issues. So, our goal is to help out as many of these kids as possible. We enjoy it … and, uh, yeah.
Anne Zachry 1:54
That's very cool. And I know that when I was emailing with you guys back and forth, when we were coordinating all of this, you know, my first question was what kind of peer reviewed research do you have behind what you're doing? Are you doing any kind of studies? And, I understand that, not only are you … because you were just telling me that you've got a regional center here in California that's already funded your product for one of its consumers, and they're not going to just jump on something unless there's evidence to back it up. But I know that you guys are also participating in some evidence … some studies and whatnot to collect the hard data that speaks to not just whether or not it's effective, but what makes it effective. How is it effective? And what is the science that underpins what it is that you're doing? And so I was hoping to get more information about that from you guys, in terms of what's … what's the research currently being done on the efficacy of your solution?
George Bailey 2:44
It's such a good question. And, you know, I was just telling somebody earlier that one of the reasons why it took us a while to get around to really focusing on autism … we were thinking about, like, you know, "Where we should go?" … is because when people would tell us, you know, look at autism, early on, as we were trying to find an application for sleep pods that were great. We were bringing it from China, I balked at it. I'm a father of five. And I have two kids on the spectrum. And I thought like, "Ah, come on guys," … like, parents of autistic children get all sorts of stuff.
Anne Zachry 3:19
Oh, yeah, for sure.
George Bailey 3:20
… business. Yeah. I don't want business on playing on people's hopes and stuff like that. And so I, initially when I approached him, and said, "Okay, I want to take this serious, because we're getting that feedback that says we should do this." But I started talking to experts, and with parents of autistic children, and interacting with autistic children of my own. And the feedback was a resounding, "Please try it." And I think that … so, I'm going to answer your question two parts: I think that there's an intuitive evidence and I think that there's going to be actual evidence and the intuitive of evidence is kind of based on all of our collective experience.
Anne Zachry 3:59
Right, the anecdotal data. Yeah.
George Bailey 4:00
Yeah, yeah. There's some heavy anecdotal evidence that's seems to say, like, these children really value … they have the same needs as if … in that there's, kind of, like, one type.
Anne Zachry 4:11
Right. There's no monoliths, but, yeah, kids with similar needs. Yeah.
George Bailey 4:15
Yeah. These kids tend to love sleeping in the closet, under the bed, up against the wall, and … there's something that's like it. And there was enough there for us to see, so there was something there. But, all of the things that, kind of, come together out of this bed, it was not built for kid's processing, initially. It was just, like, an enclosure with some LED lights and some fans and a mirror, and all of those elements, when combined together, seemed to form this really fantastic environment. And if you were to take any one of those things, separately … study this out and find some interesting things. Like for example, when you enclose somebody, then you give them darkness … well, darkness is heavily prescribed for good sleep hygiene.
Anne Zachry 5:06
George Bailey 5:06
… darker or something like that. It's separate, but the enclosure itself provides almost like a sensory …
Anne Zachry 5:12
George Bailey 5:13
And, then, LED lights, you know, again, heavily used in the sensory, or special needs community …
Anne Zachry 5:22
George Bailey 5:22
Heavily used. And so all of these things … Now, where we're at with clinical trials is that we've been in touch with the folks at the Thompson Center for Autism and Neurodevelopmental Disorders.
Anne Zachry 5:27
George Bailey 5:37
The lead clinician for this project is going to be Dr. Christina McCrae, who is published widely on autism and sleep, and that was a must. We needed somebody to do … to ask the right questions …
Anne Zachry 5:48
George Bailey 5:49
… not do what we say. I am trying my best to remove myself from the academic questions as much as possible to just, kind of, stand back and let them do their work.
Anne Zachry 6:01
George Bailey 6:01
Because, it needs an honest assessment. That was my stance from the beginning, is that, if were going to go into this, here's how we're going to look at it: We're going to find out what's true. And what's true may not be as flattering as what we'd like, or maybe it'll be moreso. Maybe it will be better than, you know … maybe we're not being optimistic enough? I don't know.
Anne Zachry 6:20
George Bailey 6:21
… but if we learned that "X" works … and we will continue to do facts …
Anne Zachry 6:25
George Bailey 6:26
… if we can say, if we learned that, "Y" doesn't, then we will also chalk that up to success and say we're going to stop doing "Y." And if we learned that we should probably … there's an implication here that we should be trying "Z," then we're going to start pursuing that. We're not …
Anne Zachry 6:43
George Bailey 6:43
… because I think that it requires that kind of mentality to really test this out. So …
Anne Zachry 6:49
Well, yeah. I mean, any kind of solution requires that kind of mentality. That's just common sense. Which, you know, we also call scientific method.
George Bailey 6:59
It's hard to do this in our community. When you're an entrepreneur, you're hustling and you're getting out there. You're constantly … you just gotta, you know, sell, sell, sell, and you got to pitch your brand, bla bla bla. But you got to break out of that sometimes and just listen to what is being told to you.
Anne Zachry 7:19
George Bailey 7:19
And sometimes even … sometimes that's hard, but you put your heart and your mind to it and your … and your money, as well. It's very difficult, but at the same time, if you listen, then the rewards in terms of, kind of, like, personal satisfaction that you are doing right by the people that you're trying to serve … Pretty tremendous!
Anne Zachry 7:40
Yeah, and I have to agree with that. Well, and what you're making me think of is that the psychology of sales and marketing is the exact same science as the psychology of good instruction. It's … it's all the same thing.
George Bailey 7:52
Anne Zachry 7:53
It's all the same thing. And so, what you're doing is … when you're doing … there's the, you know, the snake oil salesman, kind of, "I'm going to sell ice cubes to Eskimos and get people to part with their money for things they don't need." But then you also have consultative sales, which is responsible sales, where you're actually … you're not out there selling, you know, product features, you're out there selling solutions to people's problems. And you're … you're approaching it from the standpoint of, "What is your situation and do I have something that will help you?" And if you do, then what you're really doing is you're not selling the product, you're selling the solution, and the product just happens to be the means to that end. And that's a more authentic thing. And you build relationships with people. And it requires you to listen to what their needs actually are. And this is what they've been, you know, all these sales classes, they have people take, this as the message, and this is what you're doing. But it's also exactly the same thing as when you're trying to identify an IEP solution for a kid. You've got to pay attention to what's going on with the kid as a unique individual and match the solution to the actual need. And so there really is no difference between consultative selling and IEP development when you're talking about matching solution to need. And …
George Bailey 9:11
I love that perspective. And, you know, it's interesting, because I found myself in a few situations where I've actually explicitly told the parent, "I don't think we're a good fit for you." And I feel like … it may feel like a, kind of, short-term security to be able to say, like, "Yay!" You know, "We sold another bed."
Anne Zachry 9:30
George Bailey 9:31
But, it's a long term hurt on the brand. If you really are trying to establish yourself, it's like, we don't make scientific claims. No matter what, here's the crazy thing. It's like no matter how many times I say that we are not making medical claims …
Anne Zachry 9:48
George Bailey 9:48
… there will be parents who read onto what we're our saying medical claims …
George Bailey 9:53
George Bailey 9:53
… because hope springs eternal and they're looking for a solution and this sleeplessness … sleeplessness of their child is causing them genuine distress.
Anne Zachry 10:05
George Bailey 10:06
When a child's not sleeping with the entire family has suffered.
Anne Zachry 10:09
George Bailey 10:11
And so you have to be really careful to kind of repeat that again and again. But at the same time, there's the kind of the other interest … is that you also want to make sure that you get it out there, because you rely on those early adopters who are like, really like, they'll take a risk.
Anne Zachry 10:28
George Bailey 10:28
I love those people. I am not an early adopter, okay, I wasn't on Facebook until 2011. I'm the last kid on the block buy the new thing. But the early adopters, one of the things whether they succeed or fail with your solution, they give you information, that it's very valuable, you have to respect that …
Anne Zachry 10:52
George Bailey 10:53
… going back to your sales mentality, I think you're right, I don't think that it's always true. I've seen salespeople, huge tricks of the trade that I personally find to be manipulative …
Anne Zachry 11:07
George Bailey 11:07
… but I used to be a foreign language instructor …
Anne Zachry 11:12
George Bailey 11:12
… for nine years. And it was really fun. I loved that time in my life, where I got to teach, and there was always, kind of, the part of explanation.
Anne Zachry 11:24
George Bailey 11:25
You know, where you had to learn to, kind of … and a lot of the explanation that I did was kind of fun, it's a little bit off topic, but you know, I taught Mandarin Chinese, first year. And that was very fun. And, the way that we would explain things … we were told by the teacher that we worked with, I was a teacher's assistant that also taught courses, you're not going to use English to teach Chinese, you're going to use Chinese to teach Chinese.
Anne Zachry 11:49
George Bailey 11:50
So, there was a lot of need to be able to be empathetic with my audience. When I was looking at 20 of my students saying, "Wǒ" (我) which is the Chinese word for "I" or "me," that I'd have to see, are they really getting it? And I think that with the art of sales, you have to really listen to people.
Anne Zachry 12:10
George Bailey 12:11
And the better you are at listening to people and their needs, I think the better you're going to convey, like, that … that you really care and that you're ready to solve a problem and not just, like, you know, get … sell snake oil.
Anne Zachry 12:24
Right. Well, again, I relate it back to … everything back to IEPs, because if you think about the IEP process, it's the same thing. You can't write an IEP, an individualized program of instruction for somebody, unless you listen to what their needs actually are. There's not a one size fits all. That's called Gen Ed.
George Bailey 12:45
Anne Zachry 12:46
You know, and, and so, you know, general education is the assembly line. And special ed is the custom shop.
George Bailey 12:55
You know, I really agree. We've worked with some IEP experts with my oldest son, Joseph. And I was always really touched. When I felt like they were taking the time to listen to me. And when they were really looking at my son and his specific needs, and so that's, you know, it's a labor of love. And it's really critical to look at each child as an individual.
Anne Zachry 13:20
And, it's required by law for that reason.
George Bailey 13:23
Anne Zachry 13:26
So yeah, so I mean, I realize there's overlap, you know, all these processes and procedures that everybody's using … it's interesting that no matter what outcome you're trying to achieve, very often there's a similar formula to how you make it happen. And there's always a needs assessment. And then there's a matching of solutions and need.
George Bailey 13:44
A situational analysis.
Anne Zachry 13:45
Yeah. And so, I mean, it's, again, you know, it's common sense, otherwise known as scientific method. But, well, this is very interesting. So what, what kinds of … what kinds of responses have you gotten from the families who are using the ZPods?
George Bailey 14:02
So, we've got both the responses that have been highly favorable, and some that have been like, "Meh," you know, but even with that, what we've never gotten .. what we've never heard from a single parent is, "My child does not like your bed." We may have gotten responses like, "Your assembly instructions need some real clarity and they're very inconvenient," like, you know, we've gotten that …
Anne Zachry 14:25
Right. Technical stuff.
George Bailey 14:27
… from the parents, but the one universal is, "Our kids love, love your bed." And then we've had another set of children where it's like, minimalist a fact that they love it; they use it as a chill space. Right?
Anne Zachry 14:40
George Bailey 14:41
And then we've had a very large number of parents and again, I hesitate to get the numbers. I'll give you what numbers I can, to be as, kind of, precise as possible. And we've worked between … with between 60 and 70 families, okay. And that number is always increasing and that there's been a very high degree of customer satisfaction and a consistent feedback from families like, "Wow, my kid's doing things that I've never seen the kid do before," We've had, for example, one of my favorites was Dawson, a six-year-old boy, who, after a week of sleeping in our bed, the … first of all, the immediate result was that his sleep jumped from roughly two or three hours a night to about eight hours at the very least.
Anne Zachry 15:28
Praise God! That by itself is worth it.
George Bailey 15:30
Yes, that by itself is already worth it. But then, the, kind of, double validation came a week later, when the school teacher for Dawson pinned down the mother and said, "What are you guys doing different?" Because that was unsolicited.
Anne Zachry 15:49
George Bailey 15:50
One of the things we have to be really careful about as we study this is that parents who take the time and the trouble to purchase one of our beds have a bias towards believing that they made a good decision.
Anne Zachry 16:03
George Bailey 16:05
And, I don't want to manipulate that. We want them to be happy, naturally. We want them to feel like they made a good decision. But I also acknowledge that bias that they have. So, when it comes to the third parties that come in and say, "Wow, I've seen some really, really great improvement," … but we've seen that a fairly large number of cases where we'll have like an OT say to parents, "This bed has been a game-changer," things like that.
Anne Zachry 16:32
George Bailey 16:33
And, in Dawson's case for the teacher to come up without knowing that there was a change in his sleep, but just saying, "This kid is more alert, more focused." And, incidentally, in his particular case, there was talked amongst the parents about the possibility of institutionalizing him.
Anne Zachry 16:50
George Bailey 16:50
Because it was that bad.
Anne Zachry 16:52
George Bailey 16:53
And, Dawson's not a bad kid. We know that. But, anybody who is under-slept so severely is going to have severe behavioral problems.
Anne Zachry 17:05
George Bailey 17:06
Sleep has incredible value for for the brain, for the body, you know, for cognition. it's just …
Anne Zachry 17:14
… it's neurologically necessary.
George Bailey 17:17
Anne Zachry 17:17
And it's a … it's part of human survival. You have to go through that or you will … it will make you literally ill. And …
George Bailey 17:25
And it sounds kind of funny, like trying to sell sleep. We're not selling sleep, per se; it's that we're selling something that we hope will cause more sleep. But it's almost a little bit kind of funny to hear myself, like, "Aww, now I've become one of those sleep preachers!" I keep reading these books about sleep, and I'm, like, these guys are all … dealing with sleep and saying the same thing. It's almost like talking about water.
Anne Zachry 17:48
George Bailey 17:49
"Did you ever see the rejuvenative powers of water? It's incredible!"
Anne Zachry 17:56
I know you … you really have hit on a very fundamental, visceral, survival-level kind of need that sadly enough in our society is neglected. And, you know, and you're … you're looking at, "Okay, how do we address this fundamental survival need, and these individuals who are struggling with this who … and are compromised?" And so I think that … I mean, I'm always excited to see new stuff. And anecdotal evidence is always a sign that, okay, we need to look into this a little bit more deeply to see, you know, what makes us you know, for real, so I'm always happy to hear that, you know, with stuff like this, the early adopters are like, "Oh, no, this seems to be doing a thing." And all of it makes sense. I mean, logically, and intuitively, you're right, it all logically makes sense. But it's still going to be interesting to see what kind of research data comes from it and you know, … maybe some grad school student will latch on to it and want to write a paper or something. You just never know, and so …
George Bailey 18:54
And, that's what we're encouraging constantly. It's that we want it to be subjected to scrutiny, empirical data, empirical study and and we also want to urge all companies out there that are trying to provide a solution for the autism community to find ways to get at third parties that are impartial to come in, because you only stand to gain …
Anne Zachry 19:19
George Bailey 19:20
… you may not hear what you think you hear; you may not hear what you want to hear, but you are going to hear what is going to be beneficial.
Anne Zachry 19:28
Right. Once you know what you're working with, you can say, "Okay, well this is what I know I can do and I'm gonna stay in my lane and do only that," you know? "I'm not gonna try and be everything to everybody," and there's … there's a lot of value in that …
George Bailey 19:49
And, we don't want that, either. You know, there's this temptation to kind of overplay it, like, "Hey, you know this is going to do "X" and "Y" for the kid's autism," but you don't know, it's gonna be different for every kid, and it's going to … whatever your child needs is going to be a very large combination of things. We are one part of a very, very complex puzzle of sleep …
Anne Zachry 20:03
George Bailey 20:04
There are physiological components to it, you know, some people can't sleep because like internal parts of how they function.
Anne Zachry 20:13
George Bailey 20:13
Others that they're … it's just a matter of really good sleep hygiene. Some have a more selective sleep hygiene, which is kind of where we play …
Anne Zachry 20:20
George Bailey 20:22
… where they really need the aspect of enclosure, I don't need to be enclosed in something to feel safe.
Anne Zachry 20:30
George Bailey 20:31
You know? Then again, I like being enclosed in my home, in my bedroom. You know? And then in my wife's there. Those are some of the things that add to my own personal satisfaction …
Anne Zachry 20:42
George Bailey 20:43
… where I can calm down and initiate sleep. But some kids, they just thrive on …
George Bailey 20:50
And, you're making me … the word "proximity" pops into my head, where … proximity to the wall, you know? How close are the walls to me? As … you know, if you're … if you feel safe within your house, you're still within a structure. But if that feels too spacious, and you need to have the walls closer to your physical presence to really feel that … that enclosed feeling, then I … then, yeah, that would, to me, say that some individuals need the walls in closer proximity to their physical beings than others. And, it again goes to everybody falls on a spectrum of some kind in every aspect of development one way or another. And that's … this is just the one that you happen to be dealing with. And …
George Bailey 21:37
Yeah, some kids, actually … so our bed, it fits a twin size mattress; it's about three feet tall on the inside. It's pretty big I can I can sit up, I can kneel down and I'm barely touching my head.
Anne Zachry 21:51
George Bailey 21:52
So some kids feel comfortable in that, and they feel it. And I'm wondering, this is now I'm, kind of, theorizing that I wonder if this would fall under the proprioceptive sense. You know, where you can kind of sense that closeness to something without it being a touch sensation.
Anne Zachry 22:10
Yeah, because proprioception is like your the sensation of your body moving through space. And, yeah, and pressure and those kinds of things. Well, and I'm wondering if you're enclosed inside of the pod, how much of it is air pressure? And if there's an inner ear vestibular piece to it as well?
George Bailey 22:29
Anne Zachry 22:30
George Bailey 22:31
… really comfortable, that other people feel like all they need around them are the warehouse walls of a Costco.
Anne Zachry 22:37
George Bailey 22:38
You know, something very large, they're fine with that, you know? So …
Anne Zachry 22:43
Well, and it makes you think of our kids on the spectrum that struggle with personal space, and getting all up in people's faces, and they don't understand that other people have a personal bubble, and you need to step back a few.
George Bailey 22:54
Oh, that's a great comparison!
Anne Zachry 22:55
And I'm wondering how much of that is inter played with what you're dealing with? That'd be an interesting line of inquiry to explore.
George Bailey 23:01
Anne Zachry 23:03
Yeah. Well, you know what I'm thinking of to is here in California, which I know is unique, because not most states don't have anything if any other states do. I've not heard of any other states that have it. But here in California, the Department of Education operates what they call Diagnostic Centers. And there's three of them. There's one up in Northern California in Fremont. There's one in the central part of the state in Fresno. And then there's another one down in LA for … that covers Southern California. And what they do is they're … they're funded out of the State's federal special ed dollars and state special ed dollars, skimmed off the top, and then all the rest goes to the public schools. And so what Diagnostic Center does is they conduct evaluations of students who their local education agencies are having a heck of a time, even going through all the normal assessment procedures, trying to figure out what to do for these kids. And what they do, it's an on-site thing where they … the family will go and the State will put them up in a hotel and give them coupons to, like, Soup Plantation, you'll never want to eat there again by the time you're done … and, and you stay there for like three or four days while your child is being evaluated by all of these "ologists" in this facility, while you as a parent are sitting on the other side of the one way glass watching the whole thing. And you're getting interviewed and they're just like turning, you know, your whole world inside out to get a handle on what's going on with this kid. And I'm wondering if Diagnostic Centers wouldn't benefit from having something like this to test with those kids who have those kinds of issues.
George Bailey 24:34
That is such a great question. Well, first of all, let me say that California has a fond place in my heart. I was born and raised in Hayward …
Anne Zachry 24:42
Oh, right on.
George Bailey 24:51
… so not too far from your Fremont Diagnostic Center. And, you know, In-and-Out Burger, I don't know if you've ever been there …
Anne Zachry 24:51
George Bailey 24:52
Best hamburgers in the West. Great place. But to your point, that's actually … I don't know if we've toyed with that specific idea. I love that a lot. One of the things we have toyed with that we're working on right now, it's hard to get started to get … we're very … we were three years old as a company,
Anne Zachry 25:11
Oh, you're babies. Yeah.
George Bailey 25:12
Yeah, we're babies. We're two years old working within the autism community.
Anne Zachry 25:16
George Bailey 25:18
But one of the things we'd love to see happen is we would like to get more Airbnbs to use these …
Anne Zachry 25:25
George Bailey 25:25
… just depending on what kind of family it is. Well, then the point is that it's kind of like if you go to the mattress store, and the guy says, "Well, try the mattress out, see how you like it." Well, you're gonna sit on the end, and kind of push it down with your hands. You don't know what you're doing. It's kind of like, "How do I know if this is good?" And then he'll tell you, "You gotta lie down."
Anne Zachry 25:46
George Bailey 25:47
So we're trying to take it to the next level with our idea of putting these in Airbnbs because then it's like getting inside the bed. We're pretty good at assessing, we've had a number of kids come by St. Louis, just to try it out, get inside, and they love it. It's pretty automatic. And they'll close themselves in without being asked to do so. It was actually my son, when he did that. And then lie down. And I didn't know what he was doing in there. I gave him five minutes alone, just kind of waiting. And then I was just like losing my patience. And I opened the door. And there he is on his back with his hands behind his head. Very chill, very relaxed. And that led me to like, "Okay." That was one of my earlier signals were onto something. The point is that I could observe that for five or 10 minutes. Or I could do it overnight…
Anne Zachry 26:36
George Bailey 26:37
… with a lot more confidence.
Anne Zachry 26:40
It's like an opportunity to try it out. You know, that's interesting that you would say that, because separate from what we do in special education, I have a whole other program that we run that's devoted to sustainable living and food security.
George Bailey 26:53
Yeah? Oh, that's great!
Anne Zachry 26:53
And yeah, and so it's all evidence based instruction. It's the Learn & Grow Educational Series. But what we're looking to do is build these Learning Centers where people can come and stay in a sustainably built structure, with grey-water recapturing and composting toilets, and all these things that sounds scary, but really aren't and try it out for a few days …
George Bailey 27:00
… would love this, what you're doing by the way!
Anne Zachry 27:15
Yeah, and …
George Bailey 27:15
… very much into this!
Anne Zachry 27:17
… our ultimate goal is to at some point in time … what's the point of convincing people to live this way, if there's no place where they can go live this way?
George Bailey 27:25
Anne Zachry 27:25
… is we also want to be able to do affordable housing that's sustainably built with all of these same technologies. And so that if they go and they … they do a trial through Airbnb, at one of our Learning Centers that we are looking to build in the future, that they go, "Oh, I can deal with this. This isn't gross. This is still really bougie. I can handle this," you know, then they … they can … there's a place for them to go buy into a home that has all of those things. Because right now, it's all the DIYers who are doing that, and not everybody wants to build their own sustainable house. Lots of people just want to go buy a house and move in and be done with it. And but there's no sustainably built homes in neighborhoods like that. And so it's the same concept of, if you go and try it out first, and then realize, "Hey, this is cool," and you see benefits from it, then you're, like, ready to approach it for real and incorporate it into your actual lifestyle. And so I think that that's something you are doing that's in common with what I'm doing in this other program I have. And that there, there's a lot of value of having that Airbnb Experience out there for people to try things that are new. It's something that I don't think Airbnb realized when they first started that they were going to create.
George Bailey 28:34
Anne Zachry 28:35
But it's you know, there's now all of these places, and now they have Experiences. In fact, our Learn & Grow Educational Series, we actually do classes (and tours) through Airbnb Experiences. For one thing, it's a lot more affordable to do it that way for us because Airbnb will insure all of the events that we conduct for up to a million dollars per event.
George Bailey 28:55
Oh wow, yeah!
Anne Zachry 28:56
And so that means I'm not having to go down and get a certificate of insurance every time I'm conducting a class. And the owner of the property where I'm doing my classes is like, "Oh, thank God, I'm not going to have to file a homeowner's claim if somebody trips and," you know, "sprains an ankle while they're walking through the driveway or something." There's all of these advantages to using Airbnb to create these novel experiences that people can test out for just a few days without having to change their whole living experience. And then if they decide, "Oh, this was worth it," okay. It is like a living test. And I think that's … that's huge. I think there's a lot of value in that. So that's exciting. I think that that's a smart way to go.
George Bailey 29:36
And it's something … it's something that we hope to get started as soon as possible. I know that maybe some of your listeners are thinking, "Oh, where can I do this?" It's still in process. I mean, we're still looking for people to kind of try it out. We may have something in Indiana, but not … certainly not in California right now. But what's interesting to me about it is that on a broader topical discussion rather than just autism, it goes to show that we have shifted our purchasing behavior dramatically since the advent of the Internet, and Amazon has really changed.
Anne Zachry 30:07
George Bailey 30:08
It's big because, like, we think, for example … we used to think, "Well, what would the brick and mortar store look like for our operation?" And pretty soon after that, we concluded that there is no brick and mortar store for us.
Anne Zachry 30:22
George Bailey 30:22
That's not to say that brick and mortar is dead. I'm actually a big fan of brick and mortar. I love getting out there. I love being around people. I love walking around. I don't want to buy everything I have on online and then cloister myself.
Anne Zachry 30:35
George Bailey 30:37
But, that being said, this specifically, it's just, it's a big product. And it has … you're going to consider it more like a buy like a car…
Anne Zachry 30:48
George Bailey 30:48
… which can be which can't be bought at the store.
Anne Zachry 30:51
Right. Yeah, it's not an impulse buy. Yeah.
George Bailey 30:54
Yeah, it's not an impulse … Thank you. That's basically it. Nice, Anne. Yes!
Anne Zachry 30:59
… that, and, yeah. So, because it takes that consultation planning and forethought and thinking, yeah, it's not really a retail-oriented kind of thing where you would just have like, the ZPod Store. I can see like, if you had a ZPod section of a mattress store or something. But I can also see, you know, literature in developmental centers and regional center offices, you know, and things like that, where it would be something that, like you said, you're not doing a medical model. So it's not necessarily something that would be prescribed. But, you know, like an assistive technology evaluation, when you have kids who are in a special ed, who you're trying to find out what technologies will give them access to education. Well, what if the issue is sleep? Could that be part of an assistive technology evaluation? And if that's the case …
George Bailey 31:51
Now that being said, I'm really excited you brought that one up because I was I was just about to bring it up. Assistive technology programs … if you have an assistive technology program nearby, like, ask them about us. And the reason why is because we're actually currently I mean, literally currently reaching out to all of them. Because we didn't really even know they existed. I was not sophisticated enough with special needs community that really understand what these things were …
Anne Zachry 32:20
George Bailey 32:20
… but it's a program that's been around since the 80s …
Anne Zachry 32:24
George Bailey 32:24
… and every state has one. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, last year, the director for the Assistive Technology program for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, reached out to us. And these guys, they set the standard.
Anne Zachry 32:40
George Bailey 32:41
They're actually the best in the United States. And this guy, the director, really wonderful gentleman, Tom Mercier reached out to me, I think he's retired now, but Tom said, it's, like, you know, "Some parents are really trying to get me to look at this, and I just want to take a look." And we were like, "Sure!" you know. We set them up with one of our beds, they tried it out with the family. It was really amazing success for this family, to the point where Tom and his team approved for their field operators to be able to recommend the bed.
Anne Zachry 33:13
See in this … yeah?
George Bailey 33:14
I'll end with saying, now we're reaching out to every single one of them, just to educate them. And they are a great place where, if they do keep these products in stock, and then allow people to try them out to find if it's suitable.
Anne Zachry 33:31
Right. Well, and you're making me think of so many things. So, when you're talking about an assistive technology evaluation, trial and error is the only way to know if the tech is going to meet the individual's needs. So it doesn't matter how much peer reviewed research you have about, you know, this group of subjects in a study. How does that relate to Bob over here who needs this particular problem solved? Is it going to work for Bob, you know? And so … so you have, you know, you … you end up with a study where, you know, N=1, you've only got one subject, and … when you're doing an evaluation … And you're doing individualized planning, and whether you're talking about special education, or developmental services, whether it's through a state DDS or they outsource it to regional centers, it varies from state to state, or you're talking about the Department of Rehabilitation, which is to employment what special ed is to education. And you're talking about 18 and older now and adults with disabilities and if sleep deprivation is an issue that prevents them from holding down a job, is this an accommodation that department of rehab might have to buy somebody to keep them employable? And so there's all and it's, it's all individualized planning, everybody gets an individualized plan of something, some kind. So if it's Regional Center, it's an individualized program plan - an IPP. If it's special ed, it's an Individualized Educational Program - IEP. If it's Department of Rehab, it has an Individualized Plan for Employment - IPE. But they all start with that "I." And it's always coming down to the assessment of that individual person of, "What are your unique needs, and how can we meet them?" And when you're doing AT evaluations, again, it's trial and error of, "Let's try this tech with you and see if you benefit from it." Then, really the bottom line, that's the only thing that works in an AT eval. And that's just as scientifically valid as a-million-and-one research studies about a bunch of random people that doesn't have anything to do with the one person you're trying to serve. So I think that if you connect with all of these publicly funded agencies and have to do individualized programming, then your support data is going to come from the instance-by-instance individual assessments of, you know, how many of these individuals benefited from this tech? And what was it about them that made it useful for them? What do they share in common in terms of needs? And what do they share in common in terms of effects? And, then you get your aggregate data from that, but you got to have enough individuals served that way. But I think that might be an interesting way to go. Because you don't already have to have the published research to necessarily back you up. If you've got, I mean, where you're at right now is sufficient, and the fact that you've already got a regional center here in California funding this for someone, and you've got these AT assessors from … from, you know, around the country, taking a serious hard look at this from a developmental standpoint. I think that's huge. And that's very compelling.
George Bailey 36:35
Oh, I feel very, very fortunate. And the thing, I know, a couple of points to hit number one, our parents are the secret sauce.
Anne Zachry 36:43
George Bailey 36:43
They work so hard.
Anne Zachry 36:45
George Bailey 36:45
And they make it happen. Like, we're where we've had successes, really, primarily, because the parents pushed for this, they see what we're doing, they see the value, they have to do the sales, you know, to these institutions.
Anne Zachry 36:58
And they have to enforce the laws with these institutions. I mean, all of these …
George Bailey 37:03
Yes, enforce the law. I love that.
Anne Zachry 37:04
… all of these … the parents are the enforcement arm of all of these civil rights laws that protect individuals with disabilities. It's usually the family that has to go to bat for an individual who can't go to bat for themselves. And, and so you, you've got the way the laws are written, is that, you know, and this is democracy: Of the people, for the people, by the people. So the way the laws are written is the people are supposed to be able to … you know, advocate for themselves using these systems. Now, how effective that is, is a whole nother conversation. But the way the system is created, it's … it's on … the burden is on the family …
George Bailey 37:39
Anne Zachry 37:41
… to drive the process. And these, these programs exist for their benefit, but they're supposed to go seek them out and avail themselves of these programs and say here are their needs that need to be met, what do you got, and then when they come to … come with a unique issue that the system doesn't already have a, you know, a canned solution for, and they're required to innovate, these institutions are not built for innovation. They're built for bureaucracy. And so if the burden then falls on the parents shoulders, they go, "Well, wait a minute," you know? "You're here to serve us," you know? "That's we pay taxes, and we've already paid for this stuff. So what are you gonna do with the money you've already been given?" And so, you know, it really is … it does fall on the shoulders of the parents, and not just because they're the secret sauce. It's because they have to be. You know, it's how the system is set up.
George Bailey 38:31
As much as I know that there are people out there … my son's, you know … people who teach him and mentor him and stuff like that. Love him. Take care of him.
Anne Zachry 38:43
George Bailey 38:43
But none of them … none of them love him like I love him.
Anne Zachry 38:46
George Bailey 38:48
So you have to fight to be that advocate, but you bring up another interesting point earlier, that just really jumped out to me that is that, on the one hand, you're totally right, that, you know, what is right for one individual may not be another and yet, we still have a big need for clinical trials …
Anne Zachry 39:06
George Bailey 39:06
… for these broader statements. So that we can at least know what could be predicted to work. In other words, those individual assessments if you have to start from scratch every single time, because you don't have any big picture data …
Anne Zachry 39:19
George Bailey 39:20
… and it's very hard for you to be able to say, "Okay, this is what's gonna work," or, "We should even try this." Because every single time that you revisit … you visit an individual, you have to start from scratch …
Anne Zachry 39:32
George Bailey 39:32
So, big picture, you know, clinical Data, allows us to be able to predict.
Anne Zachry 39:37
George Bailey 39:38
This study says that 80%, 70%, 90% of people with this condition are going to respond positively to this.
Anne Zachry 39:47
Exactly, it helps you narrow down the field of what to try. Yeah.
George Bailey 39:51
Yeah. At the same time, on the individual level, if your child … turns out that your child gets a full 10 hours of sleep, which is probably what they should be getting at the age of five to 18, or whatever the number is, right?
Anne Zachry 40:08
George Bailey 40:08
Ten hours of sleep, they get that because they bounce the ball 10 times before they go to bed. They're good. Guess what? if that works for your kid, rock on.
Anne Zachry 40:16
George Bailey 40:17
I love that. And I love the individualized approach. So there really is value in both sides of that.
Anne Zachry 40:23
George Bailey 40:25
And then on the other side, one thing that I wanted to add is that, you know, we have these individual customers. Our goal right now as a startup is, how do we early on establish a pattern of gathering data that can tell us more about each of these individuals, and then the aggregate, so that we know with greater certainty, what is still … what is going on what is helping, what is not helping? And I think that it's very important, you know, I would really urge all startups, anybody in this space, do clinical trials.
Anne Zachry 41:00
George Bailey 41:01
Expose yourself to that. And also do everything you can to get constant customer feedback, because they're always going to tell you ways that you can improve …
Anne Zachry 41:11
George Bailey 41:12
… and some can be more shy about it than others but you've got plenty who are just, like, "I'm going to tell you my mind. I don't like this part of your product, but I do like this," and you will improve.
Anne Zachry 41:21
George Bailey 41:21
Some of our best improvements came because, you know, I got told by a very frank parent, "I don't like this."
Anne Zachry 41:28
George Bailey 41:29
And, I was really grateful, because then we took those things and immediately said, "We have some changes to make."
Anne Zachry 41:34
Well, in your … I was gonna say you're making me think of how it could be done, because how you could get that data, because if you do the individual assessments where you're matching product to unique individual need, and now you've got 50 individuals who have this in their IEP, or their IPP, or their IPE, whatever. All of those documents are goal-driven. So, whenever you do any kind of individualized planning, first, you have to figure out what it is you're trying to make happen. And then you write a measurable annual goal to that need. So if the goal is is we want Bobby to sleep at least eight hours a night for a full month straight, then that's your annual goal, that by the end of this year, Bobby is going to be able to sleep the, you know, at least eight hours a night for a month straight. And the progress … being made towards that goal is going to automatically generate data if the goal has been legitimately written … if it really has been written in a measurable manner. And so you've got all of these individuals with all of these goals that speak to sleep, and this is the solution that they're attempting to meet that goal, the data collection is naturally going to speak to the degree to which the device is helping or not. And then when you get enough people who have these devices as part of their individualized plans, and you've got this progress towards goal data being collected in terms of how efficacious it is, then you can take all of these multiple individualized reports, and then turn it into a report of aggregate data where you say, "Okay, well, out of the 50 people where we had on these individualized plans, 25% of them have this issue and responded this way versus this or …" you know what I'm saying? So you're taking the individualized data, and piling it all together to create a body of aggregate data that can then be analyzed. And so you're taking advantage of both sides of that coin to get valid data. And … and it's performance based. It's not hypothetical. So that's what I was thinking …
George Bailey 43:37
That's one thing that really, I love. And that is, I want to emphasize to you on the terms that what, folks in the IEP, what I would love is that, I'm going to speak a little bit, because I'm not the IEP expert, okay?
Anne Zachry 43:56
George Bailey 43:57
But, the thing that I hope that a lot of IEPs take away from this is that, of all of the aspects of a child's life we're talking about, this is a pretty critical one.
Anne Zachry 44:08
George Bailey 44:08
I'm not saying it's the most important because I think that each of us in our specialties, we're all vying for attention, we're all trying to, "Well, we're the most important because we're sleep and that's 1/3 of your life," and "We're the most important because we're broccoli, and if you don't eat broccoli, you'll get cancer!" All of us are competing, but I am here to say that sleep is a critical component of your IEP.
Anne Zachry 44:33
George Bailey 44:33
And, if it's going great, that's wonderful, but it should be visited. And that … that's a hard to find in a professional, in the sense that they at least have to have some fundamental understanding both of its benefits, and maybe some kind of surface recommendations that they can make, at least getting out the gate to, kind of, let's … let's take care of some of the things that could be the problem. Let's find out, for example, your child … Is it dark enough when they're sleeping? Is it too noisy? Are you watching television until 11 o'clock at night with your child exposed to screens? These types of questions help us to eliminate as factors, possible causes …
Anne Zachry 45:17
George Bailey 45:18
… what is driving the loss of sleep, and you need to have at least a fundamental, basic understanding of what could be getting in the way of sleep. Now, of course, at that point, you always want to have a good "sleep go-to"; somebody that you go to, "Okay, you know, I'm out of it, I'm out of my depth, I recommend targeting this institution with sleep centers," …
Anne Zachry 45:40
George Bailey 45:39
… or something like that. And even then, though, I'll tell you that I get a lot, a lot of phone calls from parents who said, the sleep center's, like, given up.
Anne Zachry 45:48
George Bailey 45:49
They just don't know what to do with this kid. Because this kid defies their kind of expectations for what should be helping the child to get better sleep.
Anne Zachry 45:59
Well, and I would think the sleep centers would want to test your product as well to see if … especially when they're running into a situation like that. That that should be part of the testing milleu.
George Bailey 46:07
Yeah. Well, this is all the more reason for in-depth clinical trials, to be able to put in front of them, because they will correctly come to us and say, "We expect you to have data."
Anne Zachry 46:19
George Bailey 46:20
And I expect that from them. I think that that is good. Now, if they're so inflexible as to not be helping at all, especially when we already have the pretty heavy anecdotal evidence …
Anne Zachry 46:32
George Bailey 46:33
… that this is something that should be taken seriously, the aspect of that concept of enclosure, that I think would be kind of negative. But I do expect them to have an academic interest in what it is we're doing.
Anne Zachry 46:47
I would think they'd be wanting to … helping you do the studies. That they would want to get in on and get published. I mean …
George Bailey 46:52
Oh, yeah. The reality, though, behind studies that we should all here bear in mind is that no matter what you do, you're going to be spending money.
Anne Zachry 46:54
George Bailey 47:02
And so, for example, investors and startups, they don't actually like to spend money on stuff. If you go to investors and say, "I want to raise capital, this amount of capital, $200,000, or whatever it is, is going to go towards a clinical trial."
Anne Zachry 47:18
George Bailey 47:18
They'll say, "Come back to us, once you've done the clinical trial."
Anne Zachry 47:21
Yeah, it's the same way with nonprofits. It's like, "We'll give you a grant, if you can show what you've done with the grants you've gotten in the past." I'm like, "Well, now, somebody's got to be the first one, here."
George Bailey 47:33
Yeah, so you have to look for people who are very invested, not just financial returns, that you may be able to provide, but the outcome that they actually love the story that you have …
Anne Zachry 47:47
George Bailey 47:48
… what you're trying to create. And so that's where, you know, I agree with you that I would love to have more sleep centers, try our beds to figure out how effective they are. And not just that the tried numerous aspects. It's not like, the bed's are effective or ineffective. That's not really …
Anne Zachry 48:05
Right. It's like, how are they effective? And what areas? Yeah.
George Bailey 48:09
Yeah, yeah. Or, what about the scent? Is the smell of the space affecting anything? What about the temperature? And so there's so many variables. We do have the, kind of, virtue of being able to isolate those variables and create some constants that are not really, as easily achieved in normal experimentation. I actually had a really good conversation with Temple Grandin about this, an the thing that she said, that just blew my mind, I would not have been the one to think of this, she's very …
Anne Zachry 48:43
Oh, her brain is just something else. Yeah.
George Bailey 48:45
It's really amazing. The thing that she told me … she says, "Every kid who sleeps in your bed, the same sheets, the same mattress …" and then she laid it out, like, "This is what it's gonna look like," It's just like, "Oh, my gosh!" I immediately ran to my pencil and I'm just writing stuff down, going "Thank you! Thank you!" She's so …
Anne Zachry 49:12
Yeah, the trial is … it's not comparable if everybody's not experiencing it under the exact same conditions. You can't compare one person's experience to another unless it's all identical. Yeah, that's the thing about clinical trials.
George Bailey 49:24
And it was really refreshing to get her perspective on that. I feel she's very generous with her time.
Anne Zachry 49:31
George Bailey 49:33
And so that's one of the things that I like about events is that we can isolate a lot of factors like, look at, okay, so this is one of the things we're trying to get people to think about as we look at this as a solution is that, imagine every autistic child in the United States and adult. Now, imagine all of their different living situations. Some of them have big rooms, small rooms, most of them probably small rooms, you know, because we're not all wealthy…
Anne Zachry 50:03
George Bailey 50:05
… you know? Even the room, the shape of the room, the lighting in the room, the proximity to the city, some sleep right next to the train tracks …
Anne Zachry 50:12
George Bailey 50:12
… and so to be able to isolate, their kind of like, the … the ideal is really hard to do. And I like the idea that we're working towards that. And that we … were kind of, let's give a consistent and predictable environment in which to control for other variables. And then we can start really isolating different variables in a quantifiable way that may be causing some of the more serious issues that we're seeing.
Anne Zachry 50:44
Totally makes sense. Well, so we're coming up now on … it looks like almost 50 minutes
George Bailey 50:51
It's been … every bit, it's been fun.
Anne Zachry 50:57
I know, this has all been, like, enthralling. So um, but I know that not everybody's gonna want to listen for like, hours and hours. So I think the big question that people are gonna have after listening to all of this and going, "Well, that sounds really cool. How much does it cost?" So what is the price point that … that parents if they're interested in looking into this, what are they looking at, you know, in terms of cost? I mean, even if a parent were to lay out money for this, there's a possibility it could be reimbursed by any of these agencies that have an obligation to their kids. So … but it's going to require, you know, proof of purchase and all that kind of stuff. I mean, what kind of price tag?
George Bailey 51:33
So we've got the bed, as I've said, covered in states like Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Ohio, California, and Kansas, and we're gonna keep on working on that.
Anne Zachry 51:42
George Bailey 51:43
We're happy to kind of advise parents on how we think that can be best accomplished. They come out in June, the new version, because we sold out all of … all of our China inventory.
Anne Zachry 51:55
George Bailey 51:55
We have a new Made-in-the-USA version that has upgrades all based on what we heard from parents.
Anne Zachry 52:01
That's so cool.
George Bailey 52:02
So the new one will cost $5,000, retail. That being said, the first 288, that we're going to be selling are going to be $2,800 each, and that shipping included on those 288.
Anne Zachry 52:14
George Bailey 52:16
So we're going to cover the shipping on that. The reason why we want to get these out and want to get people experienced … I was gonna say that, we do have financing and such, but the fact of the matter is that if you are invested in trying this for your child, we are invested in finding a solution. We have been very fortunate to get some really great guidance on how to get these things funded, we really want to share that with people. Our website is zpodsforsleep.com.
Anne Zachry 52:48
George Bailey 52:50
Feel free to reach out to us because we are so invested in these kids, and we just want to help in any way that we can.
Anne Zachry 52:58
Well, that's really exciting. And all that being said, I mean, for me as a … as an advocate, someone who goes in and helps families advocate for these kinds of solutions for their children, you know, this is something that we regularly do. It's like, "This is cost-prohibitive for this family. It's not like we're asking for a $2.99 app, you know. This is this is an outlay of cash that is a necessary accommodation for this particular individual." Then, you know, I know that I can go … these are the kinds of things that I go to agencies for and say, "Look, you know, if it was something easy and out of pocket that this family could do, but this is this is an expenditure. And this is what these public resources are for." I'm really excited. I'm going to be looking on your website to see what you've already got up there in that regard … of how parents can go advocate for themselves to get these things. But I would also want our listeners to know that if you already have an advocate or an attorney that you're working with, and this is something you think might be appropriate, you would want to involve that person in the conversation as well. Because, they may know, you know, how the system works a little bit better in terms of rules and regulations to help you navigate those sharky waters and overcome whatever objections people might have. Because the agencies don't want to spend that kind of money either. And they're going to come back and say, "Oh," you know, "… you just want us to fly your kid to Hawaii and swim with the dolphins." And you know, it's like, "Look, dolphin therapy might be effective, but does it … does my kid needed to learn how to read? No." And so, you know, there's, you know, … I'm not, you know, I'm not the person who's going to go there and try and pitch some, you know, crazy, ridiculously expensive solution just because, you know. We're not trying to help people milk the system for things that are not what the system was designed for. But in an instance like this where, like you were talking about the one child who was on the verge of institutionalization, well, now you're talking about least …
George Bailey 54:48
Anne Zachry 54:48
… least restrictive environment, that in all of these programs, the … the commitment is to try and keep people in as non-segregated of a setting as possible, and to keep them as integrated with the rest of society as much as you can. And, you know … and also, when you're looking at it from a budgetary standpoint, which costs less? A one-time expenditure of five grand, or $8500 a month for a residential treatment facility, and to accomplish the same outcome? And so for those kids who are in that unique boat, I think that this is a serious conversation to be had. Because how many residential placements could be prevented by making the home environment more suitable? When you're talking about … it's really about ecological control. And all if for the … in the absence of ecological control, you're going to pack this kid off someplace and separate them from their support system and their family. You know that … that's never the best idea. And that's always the last resort. So if there's another layer of intervention that can come before that, that can prevent it, that's always important for everybody in the … in these lines of work to understand and know about … that this could be something that the agencies understand this is far less expensive than what the alternative is for some of these individuals. And it certainly is far more compliant and less segregationist. And so for everybody involved it's a better solution, if that's the case. And so I think that this is something that other advocates and attorneys need to be paying attention to as well, that this is something they could potentially be asking for if it suits the need. And if so, only an individualized assessments going to answer that question. And …
George Bailey 55:03
And I would be happy to talk with any of those attorneys formulating strategy sessions. It's kind of our joy, to be able to help. It is funny, but I'll leave you with one last story. I know that we've talked a long time … about two months ago, I was helping a mother and I was in a hearing. I was not allowed to speak. They were asking about, kind of, like … they're looking for any sort of other low-cost, you know, a solution and this mom had tried everything.
Anne Zachry 56:52
George Bailey 56:54
Finally, the, kind of, opposing counsel, or whatever you want to call him there, was saying, "Well, this is … it's just changing their environment. That's all that they're doing. Why not change the room?" Like, "You can get … the room doesn't need to be that …" Something like that. I was just thunderstruck …
Anne Zachry 57:11
George Bailey 57:12
… by what I was hearing. I was like, "You're literally advocating that this woman move rather than just paying for the cost of the bed?"
Anne Zachry 57:19
Right. Oh, yeah. It's like, "How can …" All the things I see. The stories I could tell, trust me. I mean, that's like the tip of the iceberg. And, and it always comes back down to, "We don't want to …" It's a "not out of my budget" mentality.
George Bailey 57:36
Anne Zachry 57:37
It's not out of my budget mentality. You're …
George Bailey 57:39
Very short sighted.
Anne Zachry 57:41
… very short sighted. I mean, these are the same kinds of people who would rather criminalize a behavior and stick a kid in juvenile hall than pay for a BCBA to come in and provide a behavior program. And it's like, well, you know, "Even though it's going to cost the taxpaying public 10 times as much with, like, far more abysmal results to put them in the juvenile justice system, at least that's like coming out of my budget." And it's like, "What? You're gonna go home and pay taxes for that? Do you not understand this coming out of your personal budget?" And it's just the lack of wisdom. And so it's like, how did you get this job? You and I are encountering some similar issues just coming at it from a different perspective. And it this has been a very enlightening conversation, this has given me a lot of things to think about. I'm going to have an ADHD spin-off in a minute, and, you know, a-million-and-one ideas are going to pop in my head. But well, thank you very much for doing this with me today, I think we've covered a lot of ground. And this is a lot of information for people to digest, I will very, definitely make sure that I've got links to all of your stuff, you know, it's going to be something going to be sharing with the other professionals that I work with as well, so that they are aware that this is even an option. And as we encounter these kinds of things in the field, we now know, we have got this potential tool in our toolbox that we can at least attempt to see if it's going to work. I mean, again, trial and error when you're talking about technology.
George Bailey 58:57
You never know, but when it does, it really rocks. And, seeing the changes that we see, like, we're talking about four hours of sleep a night; all of a sudden, ten hours of sleep.
Anne Zachry 59:06
Oh yeah, any kind of … any kind of change you can make with respect to sleep problems is always usually pretty noticeable pretty quickly. And so, you know that part of it, that's the proven science is that improving sleep quality improves a whole bunch of other stuff. So really, it comes down to, you know, where does your product fit into improving sleep quality? Not, you know, so you don't have to prove the sleep quality issue. It's just you … it's about, you know, showing how your product fits in with it. So I'm excited to see this and if you get some Airbnbs and stuff like that they're willing to take these on, yeah, share us the links for those guys, too, because we'll put that out there for people to go and check it out and try it and see what they think.
George Bailey 59:45
Absolutely. Thank you …
Anne Zachry 59:46
George Bailey 59:48
… so much! More than anything, it's been fun.
Anne Zachry 59:50
Well, thank you! It has been. It has been. Well, much appreciated.
George Bailey 59:55
Anne Zachry 59:55
You're so welcome.
Anne Zachry 59:57
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